The Stoic Psychologist

The following is an interview that I (Wolfgang) conducted in 2005 with the late psychotherapy pioneer, Albert Ellis. He is widely considered one of the three most influential psychologists of all time and was one of the founders of the now tremendously popular Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. His own particular brand of therapy is called Rational Emotive Behavioral Therapy (REBT).

W: In “Sex Without Guilt,” you discuss the various reasons why Americans seem to be the most neurotic culture when it comes to sex. Although much has changed since 1966 when that book was published, sex education classes have remained similar, in that the emphasis is put on the dangers of sex without paying attention to the benefits. Could you briefly explain some changes that you would like to see implemented in sex education courses?

AE: The main thing is to tell the truth, to show them (youths) that sex has its dangers as everything does but that they can have a great deal of satisfaction and pleasure in intercourse, or in petting or anything, without the dangers. Therefore, they can enjoy it freely.

W: How, if at all can REBT help individuals with acute psychoses (e.g. schizophrenia)? For example, could a psychotic person use REBT to become significantly less disturbed by a hallucination?

AE: Normally psychosis is a matter of biology, so that they are born and raised disturbed and they are not going to change very much. You’re not going to talk them out of some of the schizophrenic ideas. So, you teach them, as we teach everybody, USA (Unconditional Self Acceptance). This teaches to accept yourself with your psychosis; to know that it is a handicap; to know that many people will criticize you for being psychotic, but still say I’m OK just because I am alive even though I have schizophrenia and am seriously disturbed. Then you’ll be able to not live as happy a life as other people, but you can still lead a quite happy life.

W: How do you define a vitally absorbing interest, and in your opinion, what degree of importance does having one play in your own mental health.

AE: Well, a vital absorbing interest means you pick something (art, science, music, etc) and you thoroughly get devoted to it, not obsessively or compulsively but thoroughly. You enjoy it just because you like it and you keep at it very often for the rest of your life. So, it helps distract you from all kinds of problems, but it gives you a meaning and a purpose. Your vital absorbing interest becomes a purpose and therefore it adds considerably to your life while other people without it don’t have as enjoyable of a time. You grow with it just because you’re absorbed in it and like it very much.

W: It is of my opinion that if the basic tenets and practices of REBT were preached nearly as much as that of the Bible, the world would be a much better place, or would at least be showing signs of significant improvement. That being said: Why has the public not substantially caught on to this rational and effective philosophy and therapy, and what steps would you like to see support this end in the future?

AE: Well, the Bible has some very good points such as the concept of accepting the sinner but not the sin, or as REBT calls it, Unconditional Other Acceptance. But, the Bible also has some pretty poor points. You damn people, you punish them, you send them into hell, etc. So therefore, I am naturally prejudice because I’m a nonbeliever, and I believe that people would be very much better off with the Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy than with the big biblical philosophy. I would like to see it tried, but I can be pretty sure that they wouldn’t be guilty, they wouldn’t be depressed, they wouldn’t be angry at other people, and they would be self accepting with the REBT philosophy. They might get some of that in the Bible, but they might not.

W: And what steps would you like to see taken to promote REBT in the future?

AE: I would like to see REBT taught in the school system, public and private from kindergarten or preschool on I would teach children Unconditional Self Acceptance (I can accept myself just because I’m alive), Unconditional Other Acceptance (I never hate other people, I just hate some of the things they do) and Unconditional Life Acceptance (The world is pretty rotten in many respects, but it’s not awful and horrible and I can still get a great deal of satisfaction out of it). Now, if every single child was taught that from preschool onward, they wouldn’t all get it, but a great many would get it and lead quite happy lives. They would lead much happier lives than they are presently, where they depress themselves with all kinds of anxiety, depression and horror.

W: In the past, your colorful use of profanity has certainly turned many people off. How would you respond to the notion that a professional-- certainly one of your stature-- should refrain from the use of foul language?

AE: Well, if they want to refrain let them refrain. I don’t force anybody to use my language and I don’t use it all of the time with everyone. But, I do use it with a great many people who know that I think it will do a lot of good. It is very direct, very honest, very frank, and people can see that there is no bullshit about it. Therefore, most people, much of the time, take to it and I think that anything a professional does that gets people to understand him/her and to get across to them better is beneficial. Therefore, I help people with my language and with other things such as writing that doesn’t have the language.

W: Why do humans seem to have considerable difficulty accepting the ultimate uncertainty of all the major philosophical and theological questions? Why is faith in an unfounded belief such a driving force in many peoples’ lives?

AE: Because people think they have to be safe, safe, safe, and if they had certainty then they would know everything and they would be safe. So they say: "I’d like some degree of certainty, security, or safety." That’s OK. But then they say: "I need absolute certainty all times under all conditions," and that’s impossible for anybody to have. So, by needing absolute certainty, they actually make themselves unsafe and follow all kinds of crappy ideas. So, we teach them that there is really no certainty because anything can change all the time. Therefore, you try to get a high degree of probability without needing certainty and then you do yourself pretty good.

W: In the interview cited in “The Road To Tolerance,” you stated that you have not had a miserable day since you created REBT in 1955. Has this remarkable streak continued up to the present day?

AE: Yes, I have unhappy days in the sense that something unfortunate happens. People sometimes object to me, fight me, or do me in actually. I don’t like that so I feel very sad, frustrated and annoyed. But I never, practically ever feel depressed, raging, or self hating. So in the sense of the usual major disturbances, I am not deliriously happy but I am not very unhappy either.

W: Also, please briefly explain your recent surgery and how you refrained from terribly upsetting yourself about it.

AE: Well, I had diarrhea and intestinal problems for about a year and it didn’t do me any good. But one day, when Debbie (his wife) fortunately was here, we called a doctor in on a Sunday and she didn’t think it was so bad until I started bleeding. So they got me to the hospital and within an hour or two they said I really needed to have an operation. So I said: "too bad, tough shit. Do it." So they performed the operation and I was in the hospital for the next several days unable to do very much and she (Debbie) slept over in the hospital and really took care of me and saved me from the nurses. After I got over it, I couldn’t travel very much because I had to have two nurses with me all the time. So that was a pain in the ass, but I was able to take it and do the best I could under difficult conditions and only again make myself healthfully sorry and regretful. I wish it hadn’t happened but it did. Too damn bad! So I still go on with life.

DJ: When you said I was protecting you from the nurses I think you mean from their neglect.

AE: That’s right.

DJ: He’s diabetic and they weren’t checking his blood often enough for the sugar level and he fell into a coma. He was so amazing. Within days of the major surgery after having his entire colon removed, he forced himself to write a little bit every day even though he was weak. Since then, he has written about six books.

W: One behavioral technique that is used in REBT is the shame attacking exercise. Could you provide an example of this experience as used in therapy?

AE: Well I invented it years ago when I was ashamed of doing things foolishly and getting rejected. I thought I was silly from a philosophical standpoint because if they reject me their not going to cut my balls off and their not going to shoot me. But, I didn’t get over it. So I deliberately did these things that I was ashamed to do because shame means self-downing. For example, I made myself go to cafeterias and ask for the check without having ordered anything. I also invented many other ironic ones where I instruct a male client to go to a drugstore and say: “I would like a gross of small condoms so they won’t fall off,” and help him not to feel ashamed afterward. I would have another client go up to a stranger on the street and say: “I just got out of the loony bin. What month is it?” and not feel ashamed. When they do these exercises and have the philosophy that: I do stupid things, but I am not a rotten shameful person, then they lose their anxiety and their depression and they function much better.

W: If you had to estimate, what percentage of people, if any, can cure themselves of a substantial neurosis (i.e. anxiety or depression), simply by reading and familiarizing themselves with the philosophy and practices of REBT without the use of a therapist?

AE: Well I believe that 90-100% can do it but they don’t because it’s too hard and they don’t follow it through. For instance, without a therapist’s support they might give themselves homework but not follow through with it. It is very hard to do given that the human condition is to be rather disturbed or neurotic. So, without a therapist, most of them can get somewhat better, but not as much better as they could get if they really forcefully, emotionally, vigorously and actively kept using the stuff in my self help books.

W: It seems to me that in today’s global situation, the various social evils that you name as intolerance, bigotry, absolutism, rigidity and fanaticism are still reigning supreme. Given that these social evils do not seem to be on the decline in today’s increasingly nuclear age; do you tend to hold an optimistic or pessimistic view of the fate of mankind?

AE: Well if we just let things go as they are right now I would be pessimistic. But, as I have said before, if we teach little children, adolescents and adults in businesses and organizations, even in the churches, the principles and practices of REBT, then I would take a very optimistic view. I would say that it would take a long time to reap the benefits and they will not all get it, but some will get it and teach others. The teachers will be able to teach the children and then the children will be able to teach the teachers. So in the long run I take an optimistic view if USA, UOA and ULA, which are taught in REBT, can be taught to practically everyone and will finally prevail.

W: If someone in the future were to publish a book called: “The Gospel According to St. Albert,” would you approve of or reject this title?

AE: Well, I would approve it because it is a humorous title. But I am not a saint. There is no St. Albert. I don’t think there is a St. anything. None of us are saints, but we are also not devils. We are fallible, screwed up humans who can un-saintly fight the nonsense that we are born with and that we learn, and get better and better and better.

W: In your writings, you blame many of society’s ills on the various types of fascists: including political, intellectual and sexual fascists. Briefly explain what you mean by intellectual fascists. Is there any particular place where these characters are usually found (e.g. academia)?

AE: Well an intellectual fascist not only puts others down, but puts him or herself up by being bright, attractive, informing, etc. So they say: “I’m a good person because I am so bright and capable,” and “You are a bad person because you’re not.” Therefore, whenever you act stupidly, I make you into a stupid person, and whenever you act incompetently, which at times you will, you are a totally incompetent person. So they culturally and actually use intellectual means of putting other people down for not being bright enough or talented enough. This is still a form of fascism or self downing and I call it intellectual fascism.

W: Well, I think that is about all the questions I have for you. Thank you so much for your time.

AE: It was my pleasure. I really enjoyed your questions. They made for a fun interview.

RIP Dr. Ellis

~Wolf